The Two Sides of a Four-Sided Clubhouse

Rubik's Cube SVG Rubik's Cube Clipart Rubik's image 0The clubhouse and laundry facilities remain closed because the members of the Property Owner’s Association’s Board of Directors are pompous buffoons who delight in exercising their unlimited powers to inflict pain and suffering on their peonish subjects. Misery is their middle name.

Surely, to any rational human being, such a statement flies past the town limits of reasonable, leaves moronic in the rearview mirror, and promptly arrives in the city of cracker factory crazy. No one would like to see the facilities open more than the Directors. Believe it or not, they too are happier when their lives are easier. Their lives are easier when your lives are easier. It’s really pretty simple.

However, they also have responsibilities, legal, moral, and ethical. They are charged with the responsibility of acting in the best interests of the individual property owners. They don’t pretend to have all the answers like some cockwombles who pontificate without forethought on what should and shouldn’t be done. In the case of clubhouse access, the Directors chose to not presumptuously open it without seeking expert advice. They have reviewed CDC guidelines, directives from the State government and they sought the advice of legal counsel in their attempts to follow the path that will be in the best interests of all the property owners.

The advice of the attorney, i.e., your attorney (if you’re a property owner) is that at this time, opening the clubhouse will expose the POA to extreme legal liability in the event of a Covid-19 transmission case that arguably could have been avoided had the clubhouse not been the vehicle for the transmission to occur. Your attorney further stated the POA’s insurance would NOT cover your legal defense fees and most certainly would NOT pay the cost of any judgment rendered against the POA – a.k.a. you – for negligence in the matter.

One property owner who has asked to remain anonymous made an interesting suggestion. She said, “Why not estimate the cost of a legal judgment for our negligence and split it evenly between each property owner. If those who are most vocal are willing to put their individual shares into an escrow fund, then they be given limited access to the clubhouse. If, after vaccines are developed, tested, and proven, and the POA no longer hovers in the shadow of legal liability, those with money in escrow be refunded their deposits – assuming no intervening law suits have been filed for negligence.”

Interesting concept. Let’s assume a judgment of a couple million dollars is possible (we’ll neglect legal fees) and there are on the order of 350 property owners, then the appropriate deposit will be roughly $5,700 per property owner. How many of the home grown epidemiology experts do you think will be willing to pony-up $5,700 to play a game of gin-rummy?

I’m not really throwing this out as a sane suggestion any more than I’m accepting the moniker of “elitist” because we’re trying to keep the interests of all property owners in the forefront. All we can do is do our best. We’re not contagious disease experts and until now didn’t know we had so many of them living in The Village. All we can do is seek out the advice and counsel of experts.

Many of the nattering nabobs of negativity that cry the loudest about our malevolent and ill-intentioned motives don’t know us personally. They don’t know our politics, our belief systems, our financial statuses, our likes, loves, or diversions. Although they’re quick to answer questions that haven’t been asked, we’ll continue to do our best to act in the best interests of the property owners – all of them, not just a vocal few. Our Board is your board. Our attorney is your attorney. Our peace of mind is your peace of mind. And your happiness is our happiness. Pax vobiscum.

41 thoughts on “The Two Sides of a Four-Sided Clubhouse

  1. So are you saying that we will not have access to our property facilities until a vaccine has been developed…just sayin, they are still waiting for a vaccine for HIV.

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    1. Not at all. That was merely a part of an illustrative example, albeit a bit hyperbolic. What I am saying is that they will remain closed until we get some level of expert assurance that the property owners aren’t going to be subject to massive lawsuits for a reckless opening in the face of a very real and serious threat. We’re anxiously waiting for legal counsel to recommend a viable alternative.

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      1. Liz That is a bit overboard,we are all responsible adults and know how to conduct ourselves to be safe. Everything else is open but the facilities that we need and pay for.

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      2. With all due respect, then you should have just said this rather than be disrespectful and put down other people just because they don’t agree with you. Again…these people are correct. That was written very unprofessionally. We are all under stress here enough.

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  2. The advice of the attorney, i.e., your attorney (if you’re a property owner) is that at this time, opening the clubhouse will expose the POA to extreme legal liability in the event of a Covid-19 transmission case that arguably could have been avoided had the clubhouse not been the vehicle for the transmission to occur. Your attorney further stated the POA’s insurance would NOT cover your legal defense fees and most certainly would NOT pay the cost of any judgment rendered against the POA – a.k.a. you – for negligence in the matter.

    What is the lawyers suggestion for opening the Clubhouse and laundry facility? Do we have to wait for a vaccine? What if someone sues the POA for breach of contract, since we contracted to have access to the laundry facility?

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  3. The Board has discussed being sued for someone contracting Covid-19 on our watch and being sued for not opening facilities. Your attorney agreed that being sued for not opening was more defensible than being sued because someone died.

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    1. This is a prime example of why this country is going to hell in a hand basket. Decisions that effect everyone are being made by lawyers, politicians and now according to your rant insurance companies. A special fund set up would guaranty a law suit and our insurance provider would love to take this unlikely responsibility off them. Our rights are being taken away every day using fear like you, our lawyer and our insurance carrier are peddling. God help are country and God help us all. Let common sense prevail.

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      1. OMG What about the rights of others? My Dad just died of COVID

        I suggest you buy a gun and move to Michigan

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    2. You still haven’t provided any solutions or given any indication as to what the guidelines are for reopening the laundry room. What did our lawyer say needs to happen before we will no longer be at risk of a law suite, because it seems like that is the only concern you have. Why didn’t you shut down the trash service, I had to open the lid of the trash cans to put my trash in and I could have been exposed to Covid19, by doing that. The fact is there are many ways around here we could be exposed to Covid19, I use the hiking work out equipment and I’m pretty sure no one is going behind me and disinfecting it. I’m pretty sure nobody is disinfecting the mailbox parcel keys. So why you and our lawyer would arbitrarily choose the laundry room as the most un-defendable legally, I just don’t understand. I haven’t been able to find anything that indicates that troll lawyers are going around looking specifically to sue POAs. Please provide something other than the “closed because it’s too dangerous for us to use argument” because you are forcing vulnerable owners to go into crowded laundry facilities and that alone goes against everything we have been told to do. There isn’t anything logical about this approach.

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  4. I DON’T REMEMBER US OWNERS SELECTING A ATTORNEY, MAYBE YOU SHOULD MAKE REFERENCE TO THE ATTORNEY “YOU SELECTED FOR US”.

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  5. Liz, if you listen to the advice of your Attorney (Not ours as I don’t remember having any input on the selection of the attorney) the Clubhouse / Laundry may never open again or at least not for several years. This virus will not be eradicated from the earth anytime soon. So there will always be a chance someone could get sick and die from using the Clubhouse / Laundry. However, it will be almost impossible to prove that the exposure actually happened there. No more so than the gas stations you filled up your car at, the restaurants or grocery stores you were at or any other place for that matter.

    I think it could be that a simple Release Waiver stating that that use of the facilities is at your own risk (along with signage in the facilities) and access be programmed to only allow access to those who sign the waiver. It’s sad to think it has to come to something like this because of more concern over having a law suit than doing what’s right and allowing the use of our facilities that we are all partial owners of.

    One other important point here, Liz you keep claiming you’re looking out in the best interest of the homeowners. I’d say that’s a bunch of BS and that you are looking out for the best interest of Liz McCarty not the homeowners. Why don’t you ask the homeowners and see what they say and want to do before you make that claim? I’d support the majority.

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    1. John, you said exactly what I was trying to say but am too darn mad to word it properly!!! Where has common sense gone??? Thanks.

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  6. Okay Liz, everyone in this community are out shopping and doing everything they want but your afraid they are going to Sue because they say they got COVID 19 at our laundromat instead of when they were shopping at Walmart. Tell that to someone who would believe you, you are just using this whole thing as an excuse. You come live here and go into town and do your laundry, I’m sure you’ll love be it.

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  7. Liz, making your case that is safer, from a law suit perspective, to keep our facilities closed because it is more likely to win a lawsuit in keeping it closed vs someone contracting the virus and dying then a family member suing is surely a safer bet. Now what if every business owner thought that same way. EVERYTHING WOULD BE SHUT DOWN!! Every business and place is at the same risk that you are trying to avoid, why shouldn’t everything just shut down then?

    A large portion of residents here are folks over the age of 60 (the most Vulnerable Group per CDC Guidelines). CDC guidelines still recommends the vulnerable group “Stay at home” whenever possible and avoid public areas. To us our private laundry is the closest thing to staying at home if you don’t have an on board washer / dryer to use. It’s private, gets low use, and it’s on our premises.

    Regardless of age group, we all look out for each other and have a lot of similar interests and concerns. Everyone that I’ve talked to is far more afraid of going out to use one of the public laundry facilities and being exposed to the virus there than using our own private laundry facility that has controlled access.

    Some of the reasons we purchased property here was because of the private Clubhouse and Laundry facilities. Now that someone can just take those away at a whim and not knowing when or if they will open again is making us rethink if we want to be part of what we thought was a wonderful place to be.

    Please reconsider opening our facilities for use with some guidelines.

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    1. If anyone has gone to one of the 2 laundromats in the vicinity, you know, as I do, it would be 100 times safer to use the village laundry.

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    2. Hi Susan. I am sorry for the loss of your Father. I believe I had met him. I lost my best golfing buddy during this emotional time but all I am asking is to fight this enemy with logic not hyperbole. Your comment about guns and moving tells me more about you then it says about me.

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  8. I would hope a reduction of the HOA fees is in order. We bought here expecting the use of the club house and laundromat facilities. You don’t get it both ways. Provide what we pay for. As we will be required to purchase our own washer and dryer.

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    1. Everyone received a credit for loss of the use of the facilities. The credit anticipated the facilities would be closed through June. If we are able to open any of them earlier, the Board does not plan to recoup any portion of the credit.

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      1. Number one…it’s your board not ours. You have always worked against the residents of this community so I find it odd that you are now so concerned about our safety. What this is really about is you…as always. Find someone to be a steward of the laundry room..as I have heard you won’t hire anyone and open it. We are so done with you and your “board”.

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      2. This is the first time I’m seeing anything about the length of time you all anticipated the closing of the facilities would be through June… this would have been helpful information to have in March.

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  9. I am sure that most people aren’t looking for any credit they just want what they were promised when they bought in WMVV. Find a way to give them that not some some arbitrary credit that only you know what the formula was to arrive at the amount. Let’s get open and stop telling us older people what you and your lawyer think. Give us facts not fear.

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  10. Bull , Open the clubhouse and the laundry . We are grown ups and will do our social distancing etc. Our governor is opening Arizona , who are YOU to not open OUR paid facilities . THE HOA where I live plus the HOA where my daughter lives both opened up the pools . You are wrong Liz, do the right thing … may be more “lawsuits “. If you don’t .

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  11. I don’t spend any time in the clubhouse and I don’t use the laundry. My parents own the lot. However, I do read this blog to see what’s going on.

    I must confess this current thread has me trapped between humor and disgust. It appears Ms. McCarty has tried to explain herself with a little tongue-in-cheek humor and suddenly the indignant mob forms accusing her of being unprofessional and mean spirited.

    Are you kidding? I have watched in shock as people on this site have attacked her personally, accused her and her fellow board members of having “butts for brains”, of lying awake at night trying to come up with ways to make everyone’s life miserable, assailed her character, her intelligence, her motives and intentions … And not a single word to discourage those who pile on.

    And now, all of a sudden, anything deemed disrespectful is an outrage to a few. I suggest that if you find it necessary to voice your outrage with what I viewed as an entertaining post, you also step in and express your outrage at those that find a public forum an appropriate place for unfounded personal attacks. If you took her comments personally, then try on the shoe. If it fits, it’s probably yours.

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    1. Rochelle, I’m pretty sure the post liz was responding to was meant to be tongue in cheek too, hopefully that’s not the personal attack you’re referring to. Because Liz immediately saw it that way and was just playing along for fun. Liz feel free to jump in and let us know if you were offended and lashing out or just having a little fun like Rochelle suggests.

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  12. Dear HOAMCO Board Members , Owners and staff,

    I have been studying the posts and comments from the beginning of Covid-19, regarding the loss of White Mountain Vacation Village amenities.

    It appears the information disseminated has been confusing and somewhat erroneous.

    You have graciously reminded us of your concern for us, regarding the loss of our amenities.

    I am asking you to join us in this time of loss.

    My request is that all of You, out of your concern, tape all of your washer/dryer lids and doors shut until there is a complete resolve of our loss of our amenities, and join us in the laundry experience on the mountain.

    This is not meant to be mean or disrespectful. It is truly a challenge for you to be able to understand our delima.

    I will warn you. The Pinetop laundry is being remodeled so it is not available. Woody’s laundry across from Show Low Police Dept. is open(the only one on the mountain).

    A few words of information on the laundry mat. The washers and dryers are capable of handling large loads. There are usually at least half of them working. The dryers are less than efficient and I recommend you use the ones with the least amount of rust for your whites.

    The challenge is yours. Please join us for this time of trial.

    Respectfully, Jeanne

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  13. A common sense solution found with a simple Google search. I hereby appoint myself as an at-large board member and propose we open the laundry facility by asking our owners to practice the following guidelines for use of the laundry facility. Do I hear a second?

    Practice Social Distancing in Laundromats
    If you’re using a shared laundry facility, whether that’s in an apartment building or a laundromat, it’s also important to disinfect handles and other surfaces before you touch the machines so that you don’t pick up any viral microbes that may be present.

    But the most crucial thing to keep in mind when in a shared laundry space is to stay at least 6 feet away from anyone else who is there.

    “If you go to a public laundromat, the riskiest thing there is other people,” Schaffner says. “The virus is much less transferable and infectious on a surface than it is if someone with coronavirus coughs near you. So practice social distancing, and don’t linger in the laundromat while your clothes are being washed.”

    Then use hand sanitizer or wash your hands after you leave.

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  14. This doesn’t make sense that the public laundromat are open in Show Low but we can’t open up our laundromat in Our Village to use that we pay for We are adults and have responsibilities To be safe in Time of Covid19 if you are worried about liability post a sign on door that says Enter at your own risk not responsible for Covid19 Pandemic

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  15. NEXT SUBJECT: DUMPSTERS. GARBAGE…2 OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT ENOUGH AS THEY ARE OVER FLOWING ALL THE TIME AND SOME OF OUR OUTSTANDING LOT OWNERS FLIP THE LIDS OPEN ADD MORE GARBAGE AND WHAT WON’T FIT THEY JUST THROW ON THE GROUND TO ATTRACT ANIMALS LIKE BEARS AND FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO PICK UP! WELL, THE YARD WASTE DUMPSTERS ARE THE SAME…….GUESS YOU AND YOUR BOARD NEED TO FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!

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  16. Liz,
    First and foremost, I am extremely disappointed in the approach you took to responding to this person’s comment. My family was the 5th person to buy in the village. Over the 17+ years that we have owned here, we have not engaged in any lawsuit and have not complained. Through out all of the changes that have been around here, good or bad, whether we liked them or not, we have just rolled with it. We pay our dues and enjoy ever moment we spend on our land. However, now it’s my turn to speak up and say something.

    I understand the through process of closing the clubhouse and bathrooms. However, it is September now and they are still closed. Why? I went to do the fitness trail this morning only to see that no progress has been made on moving the parts of the trail that are now fenced off. I also observed equipment from those area, that we paid for, sitting in a pile to be destroyed by the elements. Why? I feel that this being the only thing in the village that we have open, there should a more attention to paid to getting it back to the state that it was, and our equipment should have be taken better care of.
    It appears that an apathetic and somewhat hostile approach is being taken when it comes the amenities in our village. I get the impression that it is preferred that we just write a check and keep our mouth shut. If that is the case, this is an unfounded and unrealistic approach to an already stressful situation.

    I am aware that a credit was issued due to the closure of our amenities. However, as you stated in your comment above, that was done based on these amenities being reopened by June. We are in September now, and obviously that is not case as they are still closed. Another 3 months have passed. Are we going to be receiving another credit for this? As I am sure your lawyers are aware, or they are able to research, multiple companies, organizations and associations in Arizona who have collected dues during COVID-19 and did not have the agreed amenities available, were forced by the court to refund those dues, as they were considered fraudulent. I am not threatening a lawsuit. That is not my family’s style and we all know that there are enough of them that we are paying for already.
    I am asking you to reconsider your position on the closed amenities and expedite getting the fitness trail back to full usage, since at this point, it is the only amenity that we are paying for, this is available to us at this time.

    Lastly, you are really good at communicating on the good things for the village. However, when it comes to something negative you are being asked to address, you come across as defensive and hostile. The good and the bad come with the territory of the position that you hold. I understand that some of the comments may seem personal, however calling people out, being hostile and condescending in your response and dragging people through the mud does not end with a positive result, it just upsets people more.

    I look forward to the time when it is about us residents again, like it was so many years ago.
    Thanks.

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